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The Spoiler-ific Avengers Endgame and other Marvel Madness Discussion!


#1

I just saw Avengers Endgame and have thoughts feelings and dumb opinions! Maybe you do too!

Let’s talk and argue about them like they’re the Sokovia Accords in a lame Civil War type manner!

Obvi there’s mad spoilers incoming for the newest movie released a couple days ago! Stay away if you care about that sort of thing!


#2

Are you still reading this thread without seeing the movie?!

What is wrong with you?

I actually have a friend who reads the plots to every movie before he goes to see it! He spoils the whole thing for himself and then goes to see the movie.

He’s some sort of strange robot-man devoid of joy suspect. Maybe you’re like him? Otherwise you should for real get out and go check out the biggest movie ever!

Alright, that’s more than enough fair warning…


#3

Alright, I’m still parsing out my feelings having just got out of the movie an hour ago.

My overall thought is that ending things is super hard and they did a very good job of finishing off the most ambitious cinema undertaking ever.

I don’t think it was perfect, but it was very good.

It felt like a big send off for the fans, for better AND worse. And who else is watching this movie at this point than fans?

Going back in time to revisit some of the iconic scenes from the various movies was really awesome. Made me super glad to have watched through the whole MCU again with my wife here past months.

Captain America on the elevator was so freaking good! And then fighting himself was such a good bit!

I’ve said it of quite a few movies over the years, but this felt like the most comic book-y movie I’ve seen. Throwing all these characters together, time travel shenanigans, and giant epic battles where everyone conveniently shows up to do super moves with each other while quipping! So much fun!

I’m a bit on the fence about the time travel stuff though. It’s just opening a can of worms that I’ve very rarely seen done satisfying. I feel like they address it outright when the characters discuss it, but then I felt like they break their own rules by the end?

Does bringing past Thanos to the future and killing him not mean that The Snap never happened? I thought this time travel thing was supposed to fit together like a jigsaw and this feels like a piece that doesn’t work? Am I out to lunch, or do I have it wrong?


#4

My first thought: Is this the cinematic version of a mid-season clip show? Imagine if a new bond film rehashed all the iconic stunts from previous films and sold it as a new film!

The time travel was just an excuse to revisit some of our favourite clips from over the years (and Dark World…) with hilarious consequences. Even the final battle was a remix of the Wakanda battle in Infinity War.

I’ve got other views, but I’ll save them until others have pitched in…


#5

In the War Machine/Banner and Banner/Ancient One chats they lay out the ground rules. Killing your past self doesn’t spontaneously erase you or change anything in your time. What has happened in your timeline has happened and will always happen. Changing something will create a new alternate timeline that will diverge from the current timeline, which is a very dangerous thing to do, but cannot change the original timeline.

When Steve took all the stones and Mjolnir back at the end, he took them back to a few seconds after they left. This closed off the alternate timeline of Thanos going into the future, since the stones were never really taken away, allowing them to follow the observed timeline right up to Infinity War. It therefore restored the original timeline with the changes Banner brought about in his snap. In the original/ending timeline, everything happened except the going back to iconic scenes bit as that timeline has been closed off. In the words of the Ancient One ‘that only works if you survive to bring them back’ (paraphrased), so if they didn’t bring the stones back, the alternate timeline with Thanos coming to the future would have continued on forever.

Where it kinda doesn’t make sense is what it means for the guys waiting by the portal pad. Steve replacing the stones should cut off their timeline as some sort of dead end, but instead the film shows it as the timelines combining together, with no one noticing anything different until they see Steve. Steve had obviously travelled there by car, but wasn’t visible to the others until the timelines combined.


#6

Okay. That actually clears it up a bit for me, thanks!

I felt there’s a lot of moments in this movie where examining it too hard creates questions. For Old Cap I can imagine he’s just able to sneak to his bench during a turbulent time when everyone is focused on something else!

Dr. Strange’s deal doesn’t bother me as he’s just viewing potential choices to be made in future timelines. Nothing is set in stone yet and none have been created. So, yeah, I’d chalk that up to him using the Time Stone’s power to see the right course and then taking actions to create that one timeline.


What are we watching?
#7

I know I said I’d wait for others, but I’m going to be busy for a while, so here’s my take…

First of all, sorry! I enjoyed the film well enough, but in the time since all the perceived failings have really swirled around my head to cloud the rest. I feel so conflicted with this movie. It was fine, but to be the bookend of the first Avengers, anything less than great isn’t enough. It had big boots to fill after the near perfection of Infinity War, but when any double bill relies on the sequel to pay the cheques the first film has written.

I can appreciate for some, retreading the old films was a genius idea for fan service, but for me it was too much like repeat watching films I had already seen and didn’t want to pay to see again. I wanted to see the band back together for one last big stand off, not a greatest hits album of things we’ve seen before.
Splitting the group up in the treasure hunt meant we saw the same themes repeat themselves in quick succession - everyone meets a lost significant other and can’t tell them! Every timeline is messed up by a single action! It felt like predictable box ticking, which is necessary for the narrative, but so slow to watch over the course of an hour. Then the cap fight ending with a ‘my mother’s called Martha too’ moment?!? Oh boy! I’m surprised the internet forums didn’t explode into nuclear rage after that! I would have appreciated a cut down version of the time travel in general. When we know what’s going to happen, we don’t need three scenes of Stark talking to his dad in the most generic way possible, or reliving the first Avengers film again. If we’re going to see all these conversations, at least make the dialogue interesting. It just didn’t justify its time for me.

The film tried so hard to carry emotional weight, but it didn’t resonate with me at all. Using the experiences of Hawk Eye and Stark’s families was a good idea, but every character keeps talking about half the world disappearing, yet the most we see of the outside world is a desolate street and a grey room with a dozen people in. This left the message to be stated in dialogue. Repeatedly. It just felt like the old ‘show, don’t tell’ idiom. Seeing the experiences in the outside would have taken so much pressure from the script! The ending of Infinity War with the crashing cars was such a strong image, something similar here for the 5 years later scenes would have helped so much. Dialogue has never been the strength of the MCU (other than humour), and this was really evident here.

Other than that, the script felt like it was earnestly trying to ape Whedon’s Avengers, but only showed up how great Whedon’s touch was with this kind of thing. Most the humour was in non-sequiter one liners that could have been put in any conversation, rather than in dialogue back and forth between characters. The talk of time travel movies didn’t feel natural. There weren’t the magical interactions of all the different characters from earlier films, with the exception of Stark’s first scene back (phenomenal!) and Thor (they’ve really pushed him to the fore since Ragnarok!). With enough action, this wouldn’t matter, but when we’re retreading older films the dialogue was essential to maintain interest for the course.

Captain Marvel, what did they do to her?! Calling her back was the BIG moment of excitement for the end of Infinity Wars - only to be called upon in the worst possible predicament - so she must be vital to the story, right? But they call her back to be a taxi service and to fight Thanos (only to find out they didn’t need her afterall…). Everyone expected her to be the central conceit of the movie, complete with all the ‘Mary Sue’ responses prepared on Reddit, but she had 15 minutes screen time and most her dialogue was arguing with the other characters. She was done a really poor service, especially with the lift she needs after all this ridiculous internet propaganda being shuttled around.

Everything from getting the stones back together onwards was Infinity War perfection again. Hulk trying the gauntlet was intense. The end fight was everything I was hoping for. Cap with Mjolnir was insane, and the all-female fight could have been 10 times longer and I would have been delighted.

For me, I’d love a 90-100 minute action-packed cut of this movie to end Infinity War. The middle had so much flab that could have been cut out.


#8

…and finally: this is the THIRD Disney film in 18 months with something crashing through a giant spaceship to blow it apart!

Is this going to be like how every action film for years after 2008 copied the Dark Knight’s truck flip? (e.g. Avengers Assemble)


#9

I agree with a lot of what you said. To me Infinity War was an achievement because of how many characters they had to juggle and how well they did it. It felt like each had their moment and had chance to shine.

I don’t think Endgame hits the same mark, but I also don’t think it was trying to. This was focused on the “Original” Avengers and there’s a couple tag alongs who get to come along for the ride. The rest get cameos of varying lengths.

I’m actually okay with what they did with Captain Marvel. My worry was that she was going to be the “Superman” character, be unstoppable, and I think she’ll have her time for that, but it wasn’t here. She has a pretty great entrance into the final battle and levels the playing field pretty fast. And I think how well Captain Marvel is still doing at the box office should shut down anyone who thinks she can’t hold her own.

I agree with the emotional weight with the family aspect. My youngest daughter is the same age as Stark’s daughter and also loves cheeseburgers. His unwillingness to try and go back and change the past because it might mean losing his family was great!

I’m genuinely curious at what the world would look like 5 years on. Almost everyone suffers some loss and that doesn’t go away, but the way they present it is almost post-apocalyptic. There would be emptiness, but it wouldn’t destroy parts of society. You wouldn’t need to miss the Mets because they’d fill the team back up with people from the minor leagues.

Also, everyone comes back five years later. Awkward for those people who did move on. Listen honey, I mourned you for 3 years, but I got remarried. I didn’t know they would unsnap you!


#10

Yeah, I’ve heard a few podcasts mention how awkward it must be for school children. You disappear, and when you come back all your friends have graduated and are too old to hang out with you?! That’s got to mess you up!


#11

We were thinking about that while leaving the theater because Spider-Man: Far from Home comes out in a couple of months. From the trailers, all his classmates featured in Homecoming are back and the same age, so all of them were Snapped apparently. Seems odd.


#12

Yeah, with all those Disney shows tying into the MCU the one I really want to see is a drama about normal people dealing with everyone coming back (and the disappearances in the first place).

I think it would have a major impact, in terms of infrastructure and so on - and you’re not going to have a perfect split - statistically some cities/countries will get hit harder than others, as will specific industries…and just as you start to scale things down and adapt, it all scales back up again. It’s a fascinating sci-fi conceit.


#13

Y The Last Man portrayed a similar idea of all the men disappearing, leaving infrastructure with gender bias in disrepair (which had its own issues in portrayal…). It would be an interesting idea to see play out, and how the leftover avengers handled calamities. I was really hoping they’d open with the Avengers in the middle of aid missions post-snap, but can’t dislike a film just for not doing what I wanted them to do!

I’m not so sure 50% disappearing would leave middle class suburban streets of houses with nature reclaiming the land… but I’ll give them poetic license for a bit.


#14

My bet, is that they just ignore the whole thing. It might get a couple reference lines in future movies, but it’s a pretty heavy (and messy) concept to deal with. What isn’t as messy is Spider-Man in Europe!


#15

Also, just so I have this 100% down for understanding timelines:

We have our “main” timeline. The Avengers go back and get the infinity stones, but don’t change the past. The snap still happens and we get a second snap to undo it. They return the infinity stones, but because they kind of bungled it up in New York Loki gets away with the Tesseract again? Loki is dead in the main timeline.

So this mistake makes an alternate timeline? Presumably a timeline where he gets his own Disney+ tv show?


#16

Bleh. I liked the action scenes and cried at the sad bits but my god the plot was awful. I thought they were doing a decent job of the time travel stuff up to a point - put everything back where you got it from and no one would ever know you’d been into the past. Then they had to get Thanos involved because you can’t have a blockbuster without a villain and the plot just falls apart.

Also, there was absolutely no need for Captain Marvel to be in the movie. She basically just had a cameo!

Also, hated all the jokes at Thor’s expense. Lol depression.

Also, why was Thanos trying to click his fingers? Like, in the original it was a flippant gesture to show how it was nothing to him. But he has all of the infinity stones at his command, he doesn’t actually have to make a cool click sound! He can just do it instantly, regardless of who he’s thumb-wrestling with.

Also, the bird that came back! So the snap killed off all life, not just higher life? The whole point was to give the survivors room to live happy carefree lives without fighting for resources. Taking out half the ecology of every planet completely undermines that!

Ugh, it just felt so sloppy. The fight scenes were cool though.


#17

He doesn’t need to click, but he does need to close his fist to use the stones. I think they just put in an arbitrary rule to clearly demonstrate when he’s using the stones and to make it so there was at least a way of fighting him in a meaningful way. But yeah, now you mention it, they were all really hung up on the clicking!

Personally, I don’t mind plot holes. If every film had to make perfect literal sense there could be no visual metaphor, subtext, or poetic license. Everything would have to mean precisely as presented. Not that the MCU is high art, but got to be even across the board!

Definitely. It’s infuriating how little Marvel will commit to a storyline!


#18

Just watched the movie. Overall I really liked it! The weakest bits for me were the “time heist clip show” scenes but we did get AMERICA’S ASS!!!

What’s weird is the thing I’ve thought about all through the movies since Captain America 1, and the thing that made me wistful and sad was what they ended the movie, the entire storyline on. :man_dancing: :dancer:

I also did say at some point that I hoped Tony Stark died and I’m happy he did. :stuck_out_tongue: I’m much sadder about Black Widow, but somebody had to make that sacrifice.


#19

I loved the America’s ass line. It alone was worth the price of admission. :smile:


#20

I mean, the Captain America/Iron Man homoerotic tension has always been there, but it almost feels like some stuff in the movie was straight out of fan fiction.

Like the part when Captain Marvel brings Iron Man back and his wife is there waiting for him, so… Captain America rushes up to him muahaha! Then when she comes up to embrace him, Steve looks surprised, then looks on jealously.