Okay, but how many peg holes near each token slot? Two? Three? Whatever the current maximum status effects on one player can be? What about the possibility of future expansions? The maximum player count of 20 appears to be somewhat locked in simply by the size of the grimoire, but should the number of status effects be maxed out at this point? Also, would the pegs be labeled on the top, meaning it needs to be large enough to see an icon? Numerous different colors to differentiate and have a chart to remember what color does what? Does this method of slots and pegs actually save money over the felt option? (I don’t know, I’m seriously asking.)
I’m currently building my PnP for testing. My current solution is a dry-erase board (well, a piece of paper in a page protector on a clipboard). I’m printing up cards for the role tokens that can be shuffled and can be kept on hand for showing to the players.
It’s not exactly a deluxe experience, and there may be a more clever way to implement it, but I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. I also don’t know when I’ll be able to get a large enough group together to try so don’t expect to hear back.
Most of these things I couldn’t answer as I’m not a production designer or the designer of the game, but I can definitely say that components that exist or have been manufactured before (cardboard, plastic pegs) are going to be cheaper than anything that requires custom manufacturing methods.
It’s like why miniature games have a large initial expense because you have to create the moulds.
Pegs have been done before and is really cheap…
You could even tilt the box on its side and the pegs wouldn’t fall out.
All these concerns about BotA is what KS is all about. Ugly prototype that may or may not be improved in the final product? That’s KS. More expensive than it should be due to ambition and possibly inexperience in editing down to more affordable options? That’s KS. Questions of whether the game will be worth the price? That’s KS. It’s kinda exciting for a small rough round the edges KS to be the focus of attention for once. SUSD sponsoring the project by making a big review at the beginning of the campaign is completely unheard of too - they’ve really done a 180 on their approach to KSs over the last year for so.
I’ll be curious to see if this has the Gloomhaven effect of coming from nowhere and storming it on a second campaign. But big group social deduction games are a niche it’s maybe not going to have that popular appeal.
yeah the increasing quality of kickstarters and becoming de facto pre orders has really twisted what it existed for. We have some really bizarre situations where the people who made exploding kittens need “Kickstarter” to make their next thing and they get bazillions.
I think the people making blood and the clocktower are using Kickstarter to its true intent: boutique weirdos making something economically unconservative - thus prohibited from sensible business cash -needing the money to make a funky dunky thing.
Yeah it’s nearly a hundred pounds but will it be a hundred pounds spent on an interesting evening in contrast to a hundred pounds on an ever heaving wall of minutely detailed plastic that will exist in a box for that as new freshness?!!!
As I’ve been setting up for the PBF game, I’ve noticed a few small errors in the published material - typos, inconsistencies about which characters are in which set, etc. Nothing game-breaking but it seems unfortunate for a game that’s been being played for years.
I think this 180° turn of opinion in SUSD is what bugs me the most.
I wish the game makers all the best, despite not being the target audience for this, and I think the high price will actually be an advantage in increasing the chances that the final product will make it to the backers.
It’s Quinn’s and Matt’s stance that irks me, going from actively warning against KS to embracing it, only, it seems, because they like a game that much? That doesn’t sound very principled to me.
But let’s wait for the review coming up today and what they will say about kick-starting this one.
I think the SUSD endorsement worries me, not because they’ve changed their stance, but because it could be detrimental to the success of the game.
The parts of the KS campaign that read as red flags for me are stuff that can be learned from and fixed for a second edition. If the first KS were just funded by dedicated people who played it at a con and really wanted it, they’re going to be more forgiving of this stuff. They probably knew what they were getting into with backing a first-time KS and they understand delays and errors.
But a lot of hype from popular reviewers who normally warn people of using KS? That’s gonna cause an influx of less forgiving people. People who’ve never used KS before or who’ve only backed campaigns where it’s just a pre-order system, with no risks involved. They’re not gonna let things slide. Instead of an opportunity for an improved second edition, you get a lot of people saying “I don’t trust anyone who was involved with this let-down.”
I could be wrong and everything will go brilliantly. But I hope SU&SD will at least have a hefty warning in their review about what backing a KS campaign actually involves.
I don’t see this as a change in perspective from SUSD: the way I’ve interpreted their messages over the years is that they’re mainly reluctant to critique Kickstarter games because they’re normally not available for purchase at the time of review. Their first big Kickstarter reviews that I can remember were Kingdom Death Montser and Gloomhaven because they were available for purchase and backing again. Supporting niche projects that might otherwise not be successful feels very SUSD, particularly as they’ve been playing this game and apparently are ready for a big review or preview or whatever’s coming.
I get what @bruitist and others are saying though about concerns about the campaign and consumers getting involved with Kickstarter without knowing what it’s all about. I think it is going to be a slightly janky release, for most of the reasons people have said, but for me that’s what Kickstarter is for. It will be interesting to see how that works out for other people though, and if the SUSD team will talk about that in their coverage. Based on previous work though, I expect that will be a big point that they will cover.
Nah, their perspective was/is way stricter than that.
It boils down to (and this was repeated in the news a few months ago) “even if we and you think this game looks really interesting, we can’t recommend getting in on the KS. If the game really is good, there will be other ways in the future to get it without the risk involved in a first Kickstarter”. It will be interesting what they say about BotCT in regards to that. I
Well, the difference here is that they’ve actually had the chance to play the game, isn’t it?
Review’s up by the way!
They sold that like exceptionally well. The new person is great too.
“The Gloomhaven of social deduction games” - okay, now I figured out why I’m not keen on backing it. There are still a lot of games I have unplayed and still more I want to try. Maybe I’ll grab GH or BOTC someday, but not today.
Also, it’s hard to have a big group with mine, so it’ll be very impractical for me
It’s pretty common for Kickstarters to have reviews up at launch. And I’m sure SUSD had the opportunity to play some of those more than once. It’s just that they weren’t interested before.
Off to see the review now.
Video’s great, they don’t really touch on the KS problem, though.
Impern Kylie seems like a great addition to the team, once I came to terms with her accent (can anyone place it?).
It’s got definite Northern overtones in some of the o sounds, but feels like she moved somewhere else and lost it a bit, flattening out into something more RP.
I’m not sure that’s much help.
I just assumed she was raised in or near Scotland. However, I am from the exact center of the US… so… my interpretations of things probably have very little accuracy.
On the subject of the SUSD review of Blood on the Clocktower… I have to say my opinions changed a bit as a result of watching it.
1a) In general I avoid social deduction games because of the possibility/tendency for people to trade in their personal relationship currency to influence the game. The “What? C’mon, we’ve known each other for YEARS, how can you accuse me of lying!?” and the “I’M TELLING YOU THE TRUTH. IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE ME THEN WE JUST CAN’T BE FRIENDS ANYMORE” followed by, after the game, “Hahahaha, you totally fell for that “can’t be friends anymore” bit! Classic!” I’m at a point in my life that no game is worth interfering with a friendship.
1b) BotC, on the other hand, appears to address this by really creating a thematic environment where it’s not “I’m your friend and if you don’t trust me, then I’m not going to dogsit for you next month when you go out of town” but rather, “I’m the village mortician and blah blah blah”. By creating a thematic environment, player’s can roleplay characters and leverage the character’s reputation and relationships.
1c) There still runs a risk of playing with “the wrong group” and people still trying to pull the “c’mon, we’re friends, how can you say I’m lying” and, speaking directly about how they tried to address this in the video… The “oh, it’s okay because that event was amazing” thing only works if… well, if everybody had a great time which, in some groups will not happen. I do think that the game design helps this by letting dead characters still participate (though… it’s not a perfect solution it’s at least something)
2a) This game certainly looks like it could completely revolutionize the hobby. It’s basically a megagame with social deduction game rules. Or it’ll be the Twilight Imperium of deduction games where people go out of their way to schedule yearly or monthly sessions with 12 of their closest friends
2b) For the groups of 12+ people who can make this a monthly thing… It’s going to be great. They can take turns being the storyteller. They can really explore the game design and get the most out of it.
2c) For everybody else… people like me who has a weekly game night where there are two regulars… Well, I’ll say I hope one of my friends buys this and puts together a yearly game because… that’s probably all we could manage
3a) I sincerely think that the SUSD members (can’t say SUSD boys anymore, can we? ) are the types of people who thrive on designs like this.
3b) And that’s not representative of the hobby as a whole. There are a lot of hobby boardgamers that in the hobby because of things like Resistance or Werewolf or Secret Hitler or whatever… And this game is for those people who are seeking a bigger experience equivalent to those times that the 18xx players all get to play that enormous 20-hour long 18xx game, or the bi-annual Twilight Imperium game that some game groups schedule to have that “event” game. Or the wargamers that schedule two weeks off work to simulate 4 days of WWII troop movement in north Africa (seriously… wargamers are hardcore). BotC certainly stands to become the “event game” for social deduction fans.
3c) There stands a really significant chance that this game will capture the attention of not the people who will thrive on a design like this. Especially after SUSD covered it with a video review in addition to the podcast/website coverage. I really felt as though SUSD should have made a significant point about the “if this looks great but you don’t already play Werewolf and Resistance, stop and think this through. This is different and that’s good… but it could be bad if you and your group aren’t already enjoying games of lying to your friends, improv and acting, and roleplaying fictional characters as part of this story’s narrative”
4 ) This should be touted as a narrative game rather than a pure social deduction game. To some people, that’s obvious… to others it won’t be. I’m really surprised SUSD didn’t emphasize this point.
5 ) I was really worried about how this review would change my opinion on SUSD’s ethics and journalistic integrity and… I’ll admit I think they handled it well. I, like others above, am a little disappointed in the fact that a) SUSD made a review that will most certainly be used in a Kickstarter project (other than for a reprint) b) didn’t make more of a mention about the fact that it’s a Kickstarter project and that it’s up to you, as a viewer, to understand the risks associated with that.
And… finally… I’ll say that this design is so far out of my comfort zone that I couldn’t even commit to pledging it were $25. I certainly hope somebody I know picks up a copy or that, perhaps, in a decade or so when my kids are old enough and some of my free time returns and I can expend the social currency required to lure 10+ gamery-types to my house that I can find a copy on my FLGS’s shelves.
I’m gonna guess Yorkshire, maybe Sheffield or Leeds? Possibly even up towards Middlesbrough. Definitely somewhere north/north east with those hard vowels.
With the RP, Kylie’s probably either lived in London for a few years or just naturally has a softened accent. Pretty much everywhere in the UK has half strong local accents and softened mix of RP/local accent. Matt’s a good example of that.