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I'm Out of the Box! (A safe place for gaymers)

I think I can’t really talk about my experience in these sort of things because my RP groups are quite diverse, the tricky part for me as a GM is to present love interests that appeal to my players Chars.

One of my friends whilst playing a beautiful witch (a Beauty of the Night, as their circle is referred to) is into dark haired, muscular adventurers OR sensitive blond musicians (both preferably with lots of cash on their hands) is totally into warrior princesses who can beat him in a fight, when he’s himself a dark haired, mysterious warrior priest.
As for myself, my rogue thief loves auburn haired maidens with an opinion of their own, whilst my merchant clan chieftainess loves herself a strong counterpart (possibly more than one), preferably with knowledge about trading and maths and maybe livestock.

The list goes on, and love interests lurk around every corner and long term commitment is our most enjoyed past time when we’re not surrounded by evil doers. :grin:

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Dork :stuck_out_tongue:

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And I love you, too. :kissing_smiling_eyes:

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That is an excellent point. With a diverse enough group, as a DM, do you think you can take a shotgun approach, and just see which NPCs players get themselves “hit” with? Because, let’s face it, that’s way easier, and (IMHO) gives the players more ownership and investment. The other NPCs just do other rolls roles, or if nobody seems to notice or care about them, get thrown back onto the NPC woodpile.

Oh, wait. That’s true for almost ALL of the DM’s ideas, isn’t it? I hope I’m not giving away any secrets here.

But for a more homogeneous group, with just one or two non-cis or non-straight players, how would that work? Crafting some things specifically for individual players has a way of being fantastic hooks, but also has a way of biting you in the ass. “No battle plan survives contact with the enemy” also applies to contact with your friends, in this case.

One can’t herd players as easily as one could herd cats, and setting up a specific NPC for a player looks like favoritism or pandering. Not doing so can make someone feel left out.

You know, I think I’m answering my own question again. The DM makes the playground, the players decide what they want to play with. Just throw NPCs out there, the players will do the unexpected and bond with some throwaway person you just made up to facilitate changing money or sell fishing tackle or to give directions or something.

Never mind me, I’m going to be over here in the corner chair, dialoguing with myself.

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You’re right though the warrior princess later turned out to be ( gnihihi, improvisation) the heir to the throne of the old empire… :smiling_imp: hehehe he hated aristocracy… they’re still a couple if she isn’t called away by the Queen of the Amazons or he by his High Priest. Well, war’s a cruel mistress and/or mister.

and sheesh, that one time the goblin raised juggler fell in love with a random priestess of the godess of live and youth. :rolling_eyes: so boring at first, but so hilarious in role playing…

And usually the others in the group play along by teasing the one in love as the opportunity to role play and being a massive dick (figuratively) :grin:

the most common start being: So, what exactly does he/she look like… green eyes you say?..

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OK, here, wait, this is a tricky one…

What is “transgendered” in a role playing game? Surely, your character is the gender that character identifies with? There are no mischievous tricks of nature or psychology involved.

As I’ve said before, my Shepard in Mass Effect isn’t me. She is the bad-ass avatar through which I shape her story. But she is a woman born, not me as a transvestite, and also not me expressing transsexualism (“transgenderalism” sounds weird, “transsexual” sounds archaic and imprecise. I sometimes feel like I’m trans-juggling).

But that’s just it. You’re playing a role, an avatar through whom you experience and shape a story. That avatar, that “person,” can have much or nothing to do with who you are, physically or mentally or personally. But it’s still an extension of you. A mental construct with their own characteristics, backgrounds, and even motivations that might be contrary to yours as a person, but they’re still an extension of you.


I know that playing the role of your discovered gender can be a positive and healthy way to adapt, but what of transgendered people who end up playing the role of their chromosomes? What of cisgendered people playing transgendered characters? What of transgendered players, playing transgendered characters of the opposite gender? Or is this too Trans-ception, and my brains are oozing out from overthinking things again?


(In case anyone was wondering, yes, I obviously am a philosophy-major dropout, and retired professional student. 7-9 years of higher learning, depending on how you count semesters, not a piece of paper to my name.

I’ve never let school interfere with my education.

I practice unlicensed philosophy for cash, preferably for people who can’t see through my bullshit. People who can see through it, I just hang out with. Like all of you lot!)

Of course I heard her voice, I wouldn’t be qualified to comment here otherwise, would I?[quote=“nurdacil, post:100, topic:1978”]
And on another note, not diving too deep into dubbing, but compare the expectation of what British upper class Ladies should sound like and their dubbed versions. The truth is, the Ladies living in Downton Abbey or Buckingham Palace (as a RL reference) actually have a voice range (unlike their commoners counterpart) of a very profound variety which is partly due to upbringing and the usage of Queen’s or Posh English if you will. (which is btw NOT the same thing) Obviously Germans expect high pitched girlish talk from women of Dame Judy Dench’s calibre, but alas that will never be the case.
[/quote]

I don’t really understand what you are trying to say with that paragraph. Isn’t the voice range of, say, Dame Judy Dench, more of a result of professional training rather than her upbringing? I also don’t remember her German voice sounding high-pitched or girlish. Are you sure about that?[quote=“nurdacil, post:100, topic:1978”]

seems almost never to be a major concern in dubbing what so ever.

Please understand, that as avoice teacher I’m quite sensitive to these sorts of things. In all the good and bad ways which these entail.
[/quote]

I don’t feel the former part is true, but you clearly have a wider knowledge on the matter.
That doesn’t change the fact that a person like Laverne Cox poses a serious problem for dubbing. What would be a good solution, in your opinion?
And, more to the point, there is a big difference between technically “bad” dubbing and discrimination.
I think the LGBT community has enough serious problems - imagined ones aren’t really needed.

This isn’t an imagined problem. Laverne Cox is a woman. Regardless of how her voice sounds, she has a woman’s voice. It would be offensive to say to a cis woman “you sound like a man, so we’re getting a man to dub your lines”, so it’s definitely offensive to do it to a trans woman.

It’s the same problem as having men play trans women in live action. It sends the same message that trans women are just men pretending to be women. There isn’t a good reason for it.

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From the description:

I am in no way joking.

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I’m sorry :sweat:

@webs we did it again :neutral_face:. Maybe we should open a webs and nurdacil take their discussion a step further thread in the thunderdome :yum: But honestly i like the “fights” with you, they feel very productive and stimulating, just wanted you to know that I would never hold a grudge against you.
On that note: I wrote my last stuff in the heat of the moment and didn’t mean to be harsh by saying “have you heard her voice” I apologise! It wasn’t you I should’ve addressed but the German dubbing studio.

@MinuteWalt I will take further discussion about dubbing to personal messaging. :pensive:

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@MinuteWalt haha thanks for the reminder. I was about to get a lil testy but that’s not what we’re here for.

ANYWAY

i feel like a lot of queer identities are hard to explore in board games due to the collaborative or group nature of tabletop games. video games have the ability to be solitary much more than board games, so you’re able to tell these individual stories that express queer lives (see, for example, anna anthropy’s dys4ia). So I still wonder what a board or card game exploring queer identities would look like. We have Monster Hearts but that’s an RPG.

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I worry you’d end up with problems because of the (relative) simplicity of a board game. The same way a lot of games end up dealing very badly with things like colonialism because they’re not intending to deal with that, they’re just trying to make their rules hang together with a theme.

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When I was a kid, we sometimes put two pink or two blue pegs in the front seat of the car in The Game of Life. Mostly it was just to say “screw the rules! We rebel!,” honestly. But that was kind of a foreshadowing of where my friends’ and siblings’ attitudes are today.

I know I said this somewhere else around here, but for the life of me I can’t find it.

I’ve been working on a game for a while where players choose a character and then marry another character via drafting. Purely because I watched the Fief review and was annoyed at the restrictions it placed on marriage.

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I’m glad you said that. I am not trying to pick fights here but have the feeling that because of the community it is easier to have open discussions without resorting to unpleasantness.
So let me try to explain why I am generally a bit sensitive about allegiations of discrimination - or what I perceive as such.
For me, being called racist (or misogynist, for that matter) is one of the harshest accusations or insults I can imagine. And being German, and because the public discourse about all things gender is so fundamentally different here in contrast to the US, I feel that calling an act (including the act of writing, see Tolkien) racist (or misogynist) is a direct personal attack, and not, as is probably intended by @hannahbee and others, an observation about a mistake or a situation that needs to be remedied.
So I guess I sort of overreact whenever I feel the words racism/discrimination are used a bit hastily - because I perceive that as a personal accusation, which shouldn’t be uttered lightly.

And I am sorry but I will ignore @MinuteWalt’s reminder once more to ̶ ̶̶c̶̶l̶̶a̶̶r̶̶i̶̶f̶̶y̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶h̶̶y̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶d̶̶n̶’̶t̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶n̶̶k̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶ ̶̶c̶̶o̶̶u̶̶l̶̶d̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶n̶̶d̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶h̶̶o̶̶u̶̶l̶̶d̶̶ ̶̶c̶̶a̶̶l̶̶l̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶r̶̶i̶̶m̶̶i̶̶n̶̶a̶̶t̶̶i̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶g̶̶e̶̶r̶̶m̶̶a̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶v̶̶e̶̶r̶̶s̶̶i̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶f̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶p̶̶h̶̶i̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶v̶̶o̶̶i̶̶c̶̶e̶̶d̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶y̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶m̶̶a̶̶n̶̶.̶̶ ̶ Edit: I realized I actually kind of agree.
First, as I already said, there are fundamental differences between the two cultures of USA and Germany. One is the relative homogeneity of the German population. Add to that the fact that the population in Germany is only about 1/4th of that of the USA, and you will have problems finding a MtF voice actor. Which leads you to the problem of how to treat the voice of Laverne Cox in dubbing it for a German audience.

And in this regard I feel that @bruitist’s assertion that Laverne Cox is a woman and so has to be dubbed by a woman to be a little too simplistic. I have about zero knowledge about these things so I am grateful for any information from more knowledgeable minds, but isn’t it quite hard for a MtF transgender person to change her voice, because the hormones or other physical alterations won’t help you with that? So much so that some people aren’t able to fully “convert” their voices to the extent they would wish to?

I have listened to Laverne speaking now, and imo she doesn’t really sound like a woman. She doesn’t sound like a man, either, so I can understand where you are coming from. And the snippet of the German version I found of Sophia did sound more like a man trying to sound like a woman than an actual woman. Which goes to say that in the end I disagree with you in theory (I do think a man could be the ideal voice actor for Laverne), but have to agree in practice (the voice they found sounds too odd and like a man to be a good choice).

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[quote=“MinuteWalt, post:106, topic:1978”]
OK, here, wait, this is a tricky one…

What is “transgendered” in a role playing game? Surely, your character is the gender that character identifies with? There are no mischievous tricks of nature or psychology involved.[/quote]

well, everyone is the gender they identify with. cis people are the gender they identify with and trans people are the gender we identify with.

quick note, “transsexualism” is archaic and clinical. “transgenderism” is similarly pathologizing and not preferred. why not just say “she’s assigned a woman at birth in my conception of the character, and when i play her i don’t feel like it’s me exploring my gender identity”

True, but we play games with characters unlike us all the time. just like writers have to write characters that might be unlike them all the time, and actors play characters that are not like them all the time (i could be wrong but i’m fairly certain christoph waltz is not actually a nazi). writing trans characters means understanding that their lives and their experiences are all touched by that person being trans. it means not tokenizing them, but writing them as a multi-faceted person.

[quote]I know that playing the role of your discovered gender can be a positive and healthy way to adapt, but what of transgendered people who end up playing the role of their chromosomes? What of cisgendered people playing transgendered characters? What of transgendered players, playing transgendered characters of the opposite gender? Or is this too Trans-ception, and my brains are oozing out from overthinking things again?
[/quote]i honestly think you’re overthinking things here, tbh. also i don’t know what my chromosomes are, and i don’t know how chromosomes act, so i don’t know how i would play the role of my chromosomes. all i know is that i was assigned male at birth but i am a woman. shrug emoji

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i understand and sympathize, but consider that being subjected to racism or misogyny is far worse than being accused of doing something racist or misogynistic

to fulfill your request for information on this: to say that Ms. Cox “doesn’t really sound like a woman” is inaccurate. She sounds like herself, and she IS a woman, so therefore she sounds like a woman. To doubt or challenge that Ms. Cox is an actual woman, as much a woman as a cis woman, is ignorant and bigoted. This thinking - that trans women are not “actual women” - is at the root of why trans women experience much higher rates of violence, homelessness, and discrimination and it must be challenged at every turn.

I don’t believe this is malicious, but your insistence on what an “actual woman” sounds like contributes to this, too. It’s challenging to change your assumptions about what a woman should sound like or should be, but i urge you to try to do so.

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But isn’t one reason that transgender people try to change their voice the fact that they want to sound like a woman/man, i.e. how male/female voices are generally perceived?
So, I understand that in your opinion, in an ideal world, voice wouldn’t be a gender cue, but it actually is? And I don’t think that is something that is about to change, as much as we woud like it to.
And, if the German voice actor actually sounded like her, would it then matter that he is a man? Because, in contrast to live plays, nobody notices and therefore cares about the gender of the voice actor.

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Yes, and you answered your own question here:

The reason that I work to feminize my voice is so that people more easily recognize that i am a woman, because i want people to treat me as a woman. if people recognized that i’m a woman no matter what my voice sounded like, it wouldn’t be an issue.

If the voice actor sounded like her, sure it wouldn’t matter. men do women’s voices and women do men’s voices all the time. however, in this case, considering all the other characters are voiced by people matching those character’s gender (i looked it up!), this sticks out, and it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that the REASON a man was chosen was because Sophia is trans. This kind of goes against the whole point of casting a trans woman to play a trans character, and, again, it reinforces the idea that trans women are actually men pretending to be women (we are not men pretending to be women).

We can take this discussion to another thread or to PMs if we want to continue so as to avoid derailing this thread more.

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I don’t think that’s necessary. We’ll just leave it at that, I guess.
One thing I discovered while “researching” for this discussion is that only in Animes there seems to be some gender-switching in regards to voice acting/dubbing. Apart from females voicing young boys, like with Bart Simpson.
And through the snippets I watched I have actually grown interested in the series, which I didn’t ever consider watching before, so maybe some good came out of it. :wink:

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