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Discuss: SUSD Forum: The Great Pendragon Campaign


#1492

Just to continue this discussion away from the action:

This is true, but the 4 men have most certainly not sworn homage to Leddicus, so we can ignore that - as household knights, they owe fealty to Leddicus, he holds an estate on which they live. However they also owe their fealty to Roderick, who knighted them.

When it comes to split loyalties, we know that the individual knight must balance his loyalty to each lord (Roderick default is 15, Leddicus default is very low, starting at 10, he gets a -5 from being from a foreign culture, and perhaps worse from cramming them all into two manors rather than letting them hold one of their own) so best case it’s loyalty (Leddicus) (5) - when it comes to Owain giving them orders, they will not let those orders override their fealty to Leddicus, however, when it comes to Hogarth, who speaks with the authority of Roderick while he leads this military unit, then with 10 difference, I don’t even need to roll, they automatically allow Hogarth to override Leddicus.

This isn’t me dictating how it is, I know it reads like that - I’m open for discussion, but this is my interpretation of the situation


#1493

I really do not know…I guess it’s homage too, but I feel myself not Expert enough in British feudalism to understand its relationship with this game.
If we were in Italian feudalism…maybe so much was different. We had so many invasions that homage never probably had sense and betrayals happened everyday.


#1494

I mean, my authority in this case is Greg Stafford…and you as the GM.
So, again, it does not matter my own view unless you find contradictions with what is established in Estate, Warlord or Uther.


#1495

In Pendragon, Homage is an act of submission, it is something you give to a King in exchange for a title for example, and you can only ever owe homage to one Lord - it is never something you will obtain automatically, it will always have to be roleplayed and you will always have to offer them something that none of their other lords can - a home is not it - even land and an estate does not demand homage, though it is likely - A barony is the lowest step of land ownership that absolutely demands homage, and that’s because of the title that comes with it!

Most knights in Uther’s era never need to swear it to any but the Lord who knights them


#1496

I guess it depends on whom was the first to give land.
Under Estate if I give you land, you give me homage…unless you have already given it to a higher Lord.
Again, I suspect the same is with household knights (I, as a Banneret, feed you, you homage me) but I can be wrong.
I have neither Estate or Warlod here at the beach…
But if you decide that it’s not Homage, OK, it’s not Homage.


#1497

Maybe if we go this way, when you have time (and if you want to) we should try to redefine all loyalties/homages…including the very odd case of Leddicus who, as a Roman, is loyal yo the Salisbury comunity…but maybe since he is now stronger part of the feudal system, he should develop Homage (Earl Roderick, which is raising due to estate and recognition of Praefectus role) and Loyalty (Uther…which is definitively lowering…)…I would add some sympathy to Madoc…


#1498

You’ve not given anyone any land for starters, it’s your land, not theirs -

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This is homage, you don’t have an elevation ceremony and kiss knights on the mouth because they’ve come to live on your estate! You didn’t even do this when you were knighted - Homage is special, individual, unique and as I say must be roleplayed in every instance of players receiving homage.


#1499
A normal knight:

Pages for, squires for and is knighted by the same Lord - Lord X. They may have a manor, perhaps one day, even an estate - They will owe both fealty and homage to just Lord X.

A knight like Cubeth:

Pages for, squires for Lord X, Knighted by Lord Y, Landed by Lord Y - Owes Fealty to Lord X, Owes Fealty and homage to Lord Y

A Knight who becomes a Baron:

Pages for, squires for, knighted by Lord X. Made a Baron by Duke or King A - Initially owes his fealty and homage to Lord X. On being made a Baron, goes through the elevation ceremony, and swears homage to King or Duke A. Still Owes Fealty to Lord X

A knight in a military unit

Owes fealty to Lord X Owes Homage and Fealty to Lord X. Swears Fealty to Commander Y who leads the unit. Commander Y is a temporary Lord, for the time that Lord X wills it.

Each passion - both Fealty and Homage has it’s own score - for the most part they are both adequately covered by the Loyalty(Lord) stat. If they need to be seperated, they can be seperated - Cubeth see me after, we’ll work out your Loyalty (Roderick) and Loyalty (Ulfius)

If you don’t have a Loyalty (Lord), but Loyalty (City) instead, then you owe your Loyalty to the rightful Lord of that city, and each of it’s aristocrats and urban elite. This is Roderick, and when Sarum has aristocrats and Urban elites, you will owe your fealty to them at the same time - but Homage to the rightful Lord of the city - the difference is if Roderick dies, Leddicus will be Loyal to whoever takes his place as Lord of Sarum. The other knights will not, they will pass their fealty and Homage to Roderick’s eldest Son. That may well be the same person, it may not.


#1500

OK, as you say! I may be confused between notions I kind of remember and Pendragon…
As far as I remember “homage” in real history (Charlemagne or his sons?) started before the principle of inheritance of the feudal holdings (much later than Charlemagne).
Pendragon is anachronistically linked to the much later Norman period…and that’s why I’m frankly confused when it comes to such things.
I possibly mix memories of different phases/lands and what applies to Pendragon, sorry!


#1501

No need to apologise, I have to balance the game with letting you set your land up how you desire and the consequences of those decisions - I want nothing more than to say yes - however, if I allow you to have absolute loyalty of your men over Roderick, the consequences are literally campaign breaking.

I suspect that in Charlamange, the rules are how they are to create tension between yourself and rulers - but Pendragon puts a hard cap on your ability to get into conflict with Roderick - which is the end result - if there are men who are loyal to you, but not him, then you are a rival. If there are men in his army that will ignore his orders, then - well it’s Uther’s era, they get hung from the nearest tree. And when the reason they find out that these men will not take orders from Roderick is because they have given their loyalty to Leddicus, well, Leddicus is quick to follow quite frankly.

And while if this was an open ended campaign, that would be a fantastic game to play - it’s not, you know more than any other payer that you can’t interfere with the story of the campaign, so you’ll end up butting your head against a brick wall with what you can do.

Sometimes I have to say no because it’s best for the game as a whole, and your men have a small amount of loyalty to you, but are still fully loyal to Roderick. However you need to make that work with your understanding of feudalism is good with me, if my explanation isn’t up to scratch, suggest an alternative - but the end result cannot deviate from this statement.


#1502

Ok Will. No problem at all!
(And for “Charlemagne” I meant what I kind of remember from the school/university days on real history…not the Paladin game, which I never read.)


#1503

:+1: I haven’t properly read the Paladin game yet either, but there are some interesting variations on the rules!


#1504

I wanted to back the KS at the time but I was incredibly poor in that moment… (on the other hand I’m still waiting for the Arthurian compendium/la morte d’Arthur with notes …if it will ever be done).


#1505

What are the rule variations in Paladin?


#1506

Loads and loads of small changes. For a start, the bonuses for inspiration are halved. Shields start at 6 armour reduction, but lose a point for every hit they soak. Requirements for Chivalric bonus are combined trait scores at 90, and Honour at 16. There are rules for sieges. Character generation starts out from when you are a page, working out where you served to set up base skill scores. Dozens of other changes.


#1507

I always forget he has one! Also, it would not have looked very good if she was riding back to camp with his cloak and his horse…


#1508

Map Progress - really pleased with how the water is turning out, it looks a little like it’s covered in jpeg compression artefacts right now, but I can adjust the algorithm to change that in polishing - as is, I am happy!

Main issue is my land mask is a pixel or two too large, so over the coastline you can see the white of the land and it looks ugly - that’s supposed to be under the coastline to bury it - so that’s an important job, and then onwards to the land!

Oh and even though it’s too small to make it on, the river Bride should be marked as it’s a border river - but that won’t be difficult!


#1509

I’ve just put up a post where I’ve asked an npc knight and a pc knight to undertake a task, Do people think this is a good idea? It basically means you can pick if you’re the knight to help out on the task,


#1510

I noticed, but thought I would give others a shake at it.


#1511

https://sites.google.com/view/susdtgpc/pc-manors

Updated the Manor page. Let me know If I’ve forgotten anything.