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(As an aside, I’m an American. The “benefits” of becoming a part of the USA are even questionable to me. It’s an analogy, though, you can only take those so far before they don’t make sense, and I think @chrislear made a good point.
Sorry, guys, I’ll go back to sitting around and asking questions and not having an opinion.)


(Both @UllinBethalto and @chrislear have been typing for over 15 minutes now, I am eager to hear what they have to say.)


I wouldn’t vote for that. The me that I now inhabit, transported to 1776 wouldn’t even have voted to sign the declaration of independence.

But I’m unusual. I voted to remain in the EU, would happily vote for Angela Merkel as Prime Minister of Britain, and would also vote for Britain to join the USA. I would probably have voted against the second world war, which I accept is both unpopular and probably plain wrong, but still there it is. I like the idea of countries making political mergers in principle, despite the prevailing political situation.

We don’t know what the leadership of the EU or the USA will be like in 20, 30 or 40 years time, but if we are part of a federal situation we’re stuck with it, like Texas under Obama or California under Trump. Is that better or worse than being able to do your own thing (aka ‘take back control’)? I can’t say for sure, but while I would personally vote to give away control I can well understand those who think it’s bonkers.

Meanwhile, I find purely economic arguments wholly unconvincing. Shaking a Welsh farmer by the lapels and saying “BUT YOU’D BE BETTER OFF IN THE EU!!!” doesn’t persuade me, any more than telling Zimbabweans they were better off under UDI (not that the EU is the same as Ian Smith’s Rhodesia obviously).


This is a sign that I need to stop reading this thread I think. What I have to say is really not worth that amount of time, and I’m always on a knife-edge because I get unnecessarily distressed when I upset someone, which is almost a certainty now.


You’ve never upset me, for one. I welcome what you have to say, it’s always been enlightening and helpful. This place (The Thunderdome) is a bit confrontational, but the rest of this forum is built for being chill and relaxed. TT is here for people to blow of steam, which you’ve done admirably.

Anyway, @UllinBethalto is still typing, you just write faster :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I’m sorry if you got distressed, but I do understand where you’re coming from. This area of the forum can be stressful, but you are awesome.


No offence suffered at all! It’s nice to ask questions about this topic and get responses that make me consider my own position.


(^ Yeah, like what he said, only better and shorter than I did. I don’t even agree with any of you people, I still consider myself too ignorant to have an opinion.)


The argument that they will lose some decision-making is inherently flawed since an Englishman can still vote, with a single vote - lets, of course, ignore the differences on political systems between the US and the EU. If they feel that they arent being represented well, then vote for a different MEP, maybe avoid the UKIP MEPs who all have atrocious attendance records.

The argument that they dont know whatever laws that comes out of Brussel is flawed too since we, ourselves, dont even know what laws comes out of Westminster too - we rely on several forms of media to tell us that. So the fault goes to the disgusting British media for civic irresponsibility. Hence we get Daily Mail readers going bananas over bendy bananas.

Sorry but I dont feel sorry.


(Haha, I am sneaking this in and have had to step away many times, and had to try and put the train of thought back on the tracks! :steam_locomotive: So far I have been interupted: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 times)

I have been sitting back and lurking this thread for a while now… But I finally think it is time I share an outsider observation on the phenomenon that was the Brexit vote.

In the autumn months of 2015, my wife and I made a decision to plan a holiday to the UK. Actually… Holiday help...(Updated1-31-16) Ah, here we go! (And by the way, thanks to those who did give input back then!) A lot of things happened from when we bought our flights to when we left, and our planning was not great, but ultimately we had a pleasant trip. (We were in London for a week, took the train to Falkirk, a day in Edinburgh, a morning in Sterling then driving through the Cairngorms, drove to Isle of Skye and stayed a day, then drove a couple of days down to Lake District, stayed over in Rochdale and took the train to Leeds and York, flew out of Manchester… Yeah… Not great planning, but that is a different story…)

So you may ask yourself… Why tell you where we all went? As you can see, we did a English and Scottish sampler, and covered a lot of ground. But the crucial bit is when this occurred… We landed at Heathrow on June 5th and flew home on June 22nd 2016. We traveled the entirety of trip under the shadow of the Brexit vote. It was very interesting to travel in another country when they were in the process of such a major decision and I imagine people who visited the US in October 2016 were able to have a similar experience…

While in London, there was not much about it in the streets though you could sense the tension in the air.
Like something major was happening, but you could not see it… Granted we were in Central London and the only time we ventured outside of that radius was when we took the train to Hampton Court (via Wimbledon). For the most part, it was left to the news stations and the papers. Its presence seemed minimal and did not impact us much (Perhaps this was because of being in a “tourist” area and the Trouping of the Colour was at the end of the week? I don’t have the answers to that. We fled to Scotland the morning of the parade).

While in Scotland, it was about the same… Maybe a Leave sign here or a Stay sign there, but not much attention to it upon observation… But when we crossed through the Borders, into Northern England, that is when it was different. Every mile we drove it was was a sea of signs. If there was a home, there was a sign. Leave or Stay… To not see a sign was strange…

The contrast was startling and that is when my wife and I realised the magnitude of the vote. To see this stark contrast in a country was something I was honestly not prepared for. (Yet when we saw signs in our own country we were prepared…) Most people we talked to in London and Scotland when the subject was mentioned (definitely not instigated by me, by the way) they felt there was no chance it would be close, but in the North it was almost as if the vote had already won. The coverage in the US in the lead-up to our trip of Brexit was non existent… Barely a footnote. But yet in the UK the third most talked about event in the media behind Brexit and the TotC, seemed to be the US election. Every time people found out we were American, the next question was if we were going to vote for Trump… :neutral_face:

We had a nice time, but I definitely felt a bit awkward. It was much different from my solo trip I made in 2010 when I visited Northern England and the Scottish Borders. The 2016 visit had a blanket of tension which felt very… unreal…

Note: These are thought and feelings I had while visiting, not my personal opinions on the vote itself.


I now see why “@UllinBethalto is replying” kept coming up on my display for freaking forever.

(Worth it, tbh).


I think the GPC players see that quite a lot… I have a habit of starting to type, get pulled away, and leaving the window open… Plus, that is a long post (or average size if you have seen some of my other ones :roll_eyes:)


I’ve made some that take 3 scrolls. That’s nowhere like TL;DR here.


Sometimes I see someone else is typing and pause to let them go first.


Sorry to get off topic, but I do this all the time!


OK you nerds, let’s get this back on track!

I know this it totally wrong, but this is the take I’m getting.

So the UK was part of the EU, and then it said “oh hells no” and booked it out of there.
And the UK enjoyed a brief time (while it was part of the EU) of economical ease before a lot of people who lived there realized “you know what, I want to be British again.”

So they then said “FU Europe!” and became British again, and the economy went tits-up.

Please tell me what I’m getting wrong about this, there has to be a lot.


Lol. The UK joined the EEC in the seventies, as the name suggests it was originally based on creating a shared economic area that kind of thing. Since then, it’s grown and changed, sharing in most places a new currency (The Euro) creating a centralised European court that takes precedence over its members courts and setting Europe wide standards and rules. This is completely separate from the song contest and the football tournament.


Honestly, I think of all the news stories I read/watched about Brexit during the visit (I try to engage in visiting like I live there as much as possible to expose myself to differences in culture/perspective… Better than just being ignorant in a hotel room, but there is nothing wrong with doing that either though…) was the piece about the strawberry industry. Some of the EU standards were hamstringing farmers because they could not sell crops that did not meet the regulations (size and color specs) so they wanted to Leave, but by leaving they were essentially firing their labour force… The Catch 22.

Here is an article, but I do not think it was The article…

Some more current reading on the berry topic…


Thank Christ.


Strawberries? Really? This is bananas (I’m sorry for mixing the fruits up in analogy)


Same with the fishing industry. Fishermen were sick of arbitrary quota systems that meant they were dumping fish in the water. Now the legal people are trying to argue with EU fishermen who refuse to just leave the sea around the UK to the Brits.

The whole idea that we just take what’s ours and leave was a big sales pitch during the campaigning. There didn’t seem to be much argument that the EU might not want to just give it all away.

The odd thing is that was the exact argument against Scottish independence. “You can’t just take all the good stuff for Scotland and leave all the bad stuff!! The rest of us have a right to that too!”. The Remain campaign was far too complacent. I think it was partly because the Remain campaign wanted to keep a position campaign (let’s celebrate diversity! We work better as a team!), while the Leave camp were happy to get down and dirty with outrage and emotive subjects